Articles - Interview by Anthony Carthew

I first met Phil in 1998 when I returned to London after having spent two very productive years training with Mo Teague in Weymouth. After searching for another reality based instructor I was unable to find anyone local so advertised in M.I.A. One of Phil’s guys contacted me and set up a meeting. I went along for my first session and found myself very impressed and have trained with him ever since.

What has astounded me training with Phil over the years so much is his skill and knowledge and the way he applies scientific principles alongside common sense to the fighting method which he coaches, practices and utilises so well.

1. Okay Phil the big three where when and why did you start training in fighting arts?

I started in 1966 at the Ippon Judo club in Huntress Row Scarborough with a lady black belt instructor of Norman ‘Tokyo Joe’ Grundy’s. In those days the Ippon Club was the premier martial arts training centre in the north of England being active both in martial arts and body building. The club was housed in a massive underground cellar which was eventually sold as a night club. I trained there until 1968.

I was brought back to the new Ippon club in 1973 by a friend of mine from college who had started Karate and Aikido there so my interest was rekindled. I always enjoyed Judo as a kid and took to Karate and Aikido like a duck to water.

2. Tell us something about the linage of the martial arts you were taught.

Well the linage is very strong and direct on three fronts. Norman Grundy had training in Jiu Jitsu by William Garrud who was a student of Yukio Tani and then Raku Uyenishi. Tani came from the Fusen Ryu school of Jiu Jitsu with Maeda. Tani stayed in the UK and Maeda eventually went to Brazil.

The second line is though Kenshiro Abe. Norman was a top student of Abe’s, especially in Judo, karate and Aikido. Peter Jaconelli a friend of Normans and millionaire, who also was also a good Judo man, used to pay for Abe to come and stay in Scarborough for months on end to train them both privately.

The third line was with Jack Robinson from South Africa. Jack Robinson had a number of sons all good judo / Jiu Jitsu men. Jack Robinson had set up a Judo / Jiu Jitsu body extraneous to the Japanese. Eventually there was a big fall out between Kenshiro Abe and the Robinson's and a number of challenge matches were set up between Doug and Joe Robinson, Kenshiro Abe and the name of the other participant evades me. Other top martial arts practitioners brought in to ply their trades were S Matsushita (Judo), Senta Yamada (Aikido) and C K Chang (Tae Kwon Do)

Natural evolution and interest led me to branch out from Karate and Aikido into Jiu Jitsu and stick fighting, which was also on the Ippon curriculum and I trained 5 nights a week and Sunday mornings for a number of years. In 1983, when I was overseas in Belize, I learnt the rudiments and training methods of boxing from a couple of mates and we established a little gym in a shed on camp. We were also interested in knife and stick fighting, eventually pooling all our knowledge and skills we started to jam together and the fighting design was taking shape. We were experimenting big time, learning very fast what worked and what did not. All of us were looking for a functional method of street fighting and self defence which was our performance criteria.

My good friend kev Cowling used to go out to the bars of Belize City purposely to start fights so he could try out our strategies and methods which we were developing. We would evaluate the altercations and improve the design until we achieved constant victorious results, this was extreme scientific research. Due to the Spartan training we were doing then when I returned to the UK I was shit hot!

4. Your initial background was in traditional martial arts what is your opinion of them?

Yes your quite right, I started with traditional martial arts. In those days access to contemporary fighting was limited if not at all so karate, Judo, Aikido etc was a starting point for most people. Personally I was always looking for a functional fighting method which is the reason I initially started training, but a number of real fights I witnessed started me to have grave doubts in my ability and after evaluation of the functional effectiveness of some traditional martial arts. To be honest with you I used the rough and tumble training from Judo and Jiu Jitsu as a spring board and foundation to develop my own design.

Early Days... Roger Grundy throwing Phil Giles at the Palm Court Hotel
Demonstration 1978

5. Do you believe that traditional martial arts have become one-dimensional or removed from reality?

That’s a good point, personally I believe some traditional martial arts are stuck in the past with the attitude of ‘Well, the great master did it like this and we’ll continue doing it like this’ leading them to develop an irrational self image of their so called mystical powers and invincibility. However, they soon will discover the error of their thinking once they engage in rough and tumble resistance sparring, or find themselves in a bar brawl for the first time. No one likes change for changing sake because people feel secure in things they are used to, but natural evolution is a fact of life, so don’t oppose it go with it and you will grow to meet social and the ever changing environmental requirements.

Really that’s back to the Ippon Judo Club days. Norman Grundy was my first teacher back in 1973, but handed over to his son Roger a year or so after due to ill health and retirement. John Waterson also coached at the club, so between the three if them I was able to train across a number of methods and gain knowledge and experience to start to think for myself. Once this thinking for your self stage is reached you really start to teach yourself, you become a scientist in your own right.

7. I know you are a big fan of utilising ‘anything that works’ and I know you have integrated boxing together with Jiu Jitsu training, why?

The punching which we originally did within our Jiu Jitsu had derived from Kenshiro Abe, and was sort of a Chinese Kempo, fast and light, but not really that effective or efficient. Once I learnt the basics of boxing in Belize I realised that this had much more potential. However, it still required some modifications. The first thing we did to make it more street effective was the addition of headbutts knees and elbows, and the concept of all the body as a target. This change just fell into place with the rough and tumble Jiu Jitsu and gelled together perfectly, vastly improving our overall combat efficiency. Some compounds are like that they complement and enhance each other. Of course since then we have continued to develop our skills and training methods to what you see today.

8. You’re a big fan of old time boxers like Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Driscoll and Jack Dempsey why?

I have conducted lots of research into old time boxing methods and boxers and found that as far as fighting went these guys had made changes and developed methods to meet their own personal requirements. Some of the science and methods they used were very efficient and gave them great advantage over their opponents, both in and out of the ring. All of them were fighters first and boxers second. I have borrowed a number of their methods, suggestions and technicalities and after experimentation and subsequent adaptation integrated them into my own fighting. There is a saying in scientific circles ‘ Look to the past to develop the future’ .

We live in a very shallow society were social acceptance and credibility of an individual is based on gaining qualifications, or in martial arts belts, grades etc. Personally I have never liked this formal recognition as it creates separation, and as I referred to in a previous question ‘the dojo pecking order’. I have opposed this for years but came across great obstacles within established circles, and eventually had to conform much to my dismay. Linked to martial arts belts and grading is the term ‘training under’

I really detest this as it’s a derogatory statement which infers that one is better than another. Think of it like this ‘we train with’ or ‘we train together’. I might have more skill or knowledge in certain areas than you, so we train or workout together to bring you along, this in turn helps me progress as you improve, and vice versa. Once you realise this everyone moves on fast-track. In conclusion no one ‘trains under’ me, but I sure do ‘train with’ lots of friends.

L to R: Anthony Clubber Carthew, Phil Giles, Chris Dunn, Darren Porter, Martin Dunn

Pop music playing, laughing, swearing, informal, rough and tumble scrapping, black eyes and bloody noses. If you ever come across a gym like this like this, you will have found the real thing.

10. What’s your motivation to keep training, still getting up at 6 am every morning to run, after 30 years?

It's getting harder now especially in the morning to get up and run, in hail, rain sleet and snow, but I still manage it five mornings a week. My overall training has depleted somewhat especially as I’ve got into my late forties as I’m often tired now, and being wiser listen to my body when it asks for a rest. For years I would push myself training twice sometimes three times a day, six days a week, running, gym and street tough training. I was lecturing at college then plus I had long holidays. As you know I am always experimenting or researching some aspect of my design or training methods so it is this which primarily keeps me motivated, also coaching and helping the guys progress gives my pleasure.

Well besides running, which is the foundation of my fitness and cardio vascular conditioning I also do special exercises using my own body weight. These are designed to develop functional strength rather than specific strength which is gained by using weights. The exercises are derived from my Judo and

Jiu Jitsu days with Norman and Roger Grundy and although primarily designed to condition the body also have a degree of cardio vascular endurance, (See Judo Training Methods by Donn Draeger) I also utilise bungee cords and old bicycle inner tubes for certain exercises, which give me an isometric muscle workout.

Well if you get into a fight you had better be fit, and the best way of developing cardio vascular endurance is running, which is second to none. Ninety percent of fighting and or self defence is cardio vascular fitness, if you haven’t got it you wont last long, fact. I often get phone calls from prospective clients asking to start ‘Street Tough’ training with me. When I ask them why they want to learn to fight they often say ‘to get fit’ wrong answer! I quickly point them in the direction of the local sports centre.

If someone wants to start to learn to fight the coach needs something with which to work, its no good if they keep stopping to rest or dropping out because they can’t hack the pace, its not fair on the coach or other training partners. I certainly expect potential athletes to have invested some time on cardio vascular endurance, be it swimming, cycling, or preferably running before acceptance. As the old saying goes:-

It’s this commitment that the coach is initially looking for which can be further developed. This is a basic natural selection process and weeds them out before they even come through the door. If some people think that’s harsh, tough, there are plenty of martial arts clubs, gyms etc who teach the masses, I want the few!

13. Street Tough, Hardcore Street Fighting Fundamentals has just been published. How did that come about?

Over the years I had made lots of notes and compiled a few articles about various aspects of fighting, and training methods, which I thought, could be collated into a useful book. After sifting through all my material I decided to produce a fundamental guide, which gives an overview of the essential requirements for street fighting and self-defence. After consideration I approached Paladin Press who accepted my proposal and after working together with them was published in April 2004, Price $ 25.

14. You said that you have had some articles published before where and what were they?

Writing about fighting and training methods is a bit of a busman’s holiday for me really as my profession as a Design Engineer finds me authoring technical specifications everyday. On the contemporary martial arts front I had my first article published in 1985 for the ‘ Survival and Weaponry Year Book’, and it was about methods of firearm disarming. At that time I was out in Nigeria working with the Foreign Office and everywhere we went in and around Lagos and up country we came across corrupt armed militia, so you can guess which skills I was practicing then? I also wrote a number of articles for ‘Fighting Chance’ magazine which was the journal for the Self Defence federation.

15. Going back to your book, there are a couple of sections that a lot of people, especially the traditionalist or those of a nervous disposition may find too brutal, especially the dirty tricks detailed and the dispatching of an enemy on the ground. Can you comment on that?

It is important to realise that ‘Street Tough’ is not intended as a sport to gain medals, or for esoteric development, gaining coloured belts, or as a method to be marketed to children the elderly or the local Woman’s Institute. A real fight is a brutal bloody affair, it is about survival on the streets which could mean seriously injuring or in certain circumstances even killing an aggressor. Consequently the training prepares individuals for this possibility. As for the dirty tricks, this has always being an integral part of combat Judo /Jiu Jitsu, the bits that Jigoro Kano omitted to create a safer sporting version.

Finishing an enemy on the ground goes back to training with the guys in Belize and the hand to hand combat methods we experimented with then, it has its place, I refer to my opening statement to this question.

16. You support your coaching with explanations of scientific principles and physics. How does that actually fit in with fighting?

Well as an Engineer by profession I use science and physics every day. All my designs are underpinned by established scientific core principles, this has just carried over naturally into my fighting design, and can be explained in the same terms. Physics when applied to fighting is not about which style is better, forget that argument its old hat. To be more specific it is about taking what you have regardless of martial art using your own expression then applying physics to achieve greater efficiency and performance. Physics is only boring when you don’t understand the application. Science can explain everything, it gives you ideas and alternatives. Applying Physics gives you a definite advantage over your adversary. That is why if you understand Physics it will elevate you to levels you never thought possible.

17. Now I know you have tested your skills in a number of situations, would you like to mention any?

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